Interviews
INTERVIEW: Building Dynasties: Penick's Q&A with Matt Pena, longtime trainer of Matt Hughes, Robbie Lawler and more
Feb 13, 2010 - 4:14:10 PM INTERVIEW: Building Dynasties: Penick's Q&A with Matt Pena, longtime trainer of Matt Hughes, Robbie Lawler and more

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By: Jamie Penick, MMATorch Editor-in-Chief

Matt Pena is one of the longest tenured striking coaches in the sport of mixed martial arts. From his beginnings with Miletich Fighting Systems in Iowa to helping found the H.I.T. Squad with Matt Hughes and Robbie Lawler, Pena has been a part of many a top fighter's career. Now, as head boxing coach at Jeremy Horn's Elite Performance Gym in Salt Lake City, UT, Pena looks to continue the tradition of those gyms with a new dynasty. Still training Lawler and many others, including Matt Hughes for his upcoming bout, Pena took some time out this week to speak with MMATorch Editor Jamie Penick about a number of topics, including Lawler's Strikeforce bout with Melvin Manhoef, Hughes' upcoming fight with Renzo Gracie, the future of Jeremy Horn and much more.

Jamie Penick: Now, you've got a couple of your guys that have had just had fights or are coming into fights, with Robbie Lawler fighting Melvin Manhoef and Matt Hughes taking on Renzo Gracie in April. How did that fight go for Robbie from your end and how did the gameplan go with that fight?

Matt Pena: Well definitely the fight against Melvin Manhoef is a pretty interesting experience. He's built up a majority of his career, especially in MMA, intimidating and just demolishing a lot of fighters. So he's a little bit more different than getting prepared for a lot of other fighters. I don't think I've ever spent as much time with a particular fighter trying to just purely intimidate one of the most intimidating fighters in terms of Robbie Lawler. Not as effective as [Melvin's] leg kicks were. He definitely came to fight. The one thing he forgot about is the fact that Robbie is a big hitter as well. We saw some holes that were in Melvin Manhoef's gameplan and saw some things through tape that we we've kind of watched, and although we weren't able to do some of the things that we wanted to, in the end I felt that we were going to be able to knock him out. I just that it was going to be a situation where we might be able to get a takedown or two, get him to pursue us a little bit later at the end of round one or round two and knock him out late. But, Melvin came with a great gameplan, you know he still threw a lot of punches and tried to open up on Rob a little bit too early. Rob was sitting there waiting to exploit some of the things that we saw in tapes of both his K-1 fights and MMA fights, but mostly the K-1 fights.

JP: Now, being that Melvin came out with a good gameplan and had been putting it on Robbie early, and Robbie started limping really badly with those leg kicks as that was where Melvin was really scoring in his strikes. Where you guys getting worried at all with Robbie not being able to do much to that point, he landed three punch in the entire fight, he made them count clearly, but were you getting nervous or were you still thinking he'd get that shot in.

MP: You know, I could sit here and pretend that everything was exactly the way it went, but at some point there was maybe just an ounce of hesitance when I saw Robbie wince one time after a leg kick. He went to take a step and he winced, and it was the first time I had a little bit of doubt in my mind thinking, 'my guy can't stand on that front leg how is he going to be able to fight' but it was something I was able to get out of my head and Rob did as well. A lot of people don't realize that wince didn't come from the leg kick he received, he actually rolled his ankle and sprained his own ankle when he took that step. But between the sprained ankle and some of the damage Melvin was inflicting on his leg it was a bit of a concern, but again it's something that a little less experienced fighter might have panicked but Robbie was able to stay calm. I don't think Melvin even hit Robbie in his head, even after the fight we were kind of joking backstage looking for marks on his face and he didn't have a thing. The inside leg definitely needed some ice and a little bit of attention, though.

JP: In the post fight Robbie was a bit standoffish about what's next for him when asked about a possible future fight with Jake Shields perhaps. Along with those comments and Matt Hughes coming out with multiple comments about the experience with Strikeforce as a whole, what are you seeing with Robbie's future in Strikeforce and is it something where he's looking to get back to the UFC as that's where a lot of speculation is out there.

MP: The UFC's always had a special spot for Robbie and likewise Robbie's always had a special spot for the UFC, but I don't think either one of them is going to influence too much with what's going to happen with Robbie. If Strikeforce continues to show that they want Robbie, and they want to take care of Robbie and keep him active and fighting good fights…Robbie just wants to fight fights and earn a living. He's not the type of person that wants to call out anyone in particular he's just going to sit back and if you want to fight him he's going to come ready to fight. He's one of the most fun people to train to get ready for fights for that reason. I don't have to worry about making sure somebody's there to make sure they remember that no matter how big the event is, it's still just a fight. Robbie knows exactly what he's getting into, and I don't really think it's a situation where he wants to fight any particular person he just wants to make sure that his family is taken care of and he's going to be able to stay active.

JP: With the sprained ankle and the injuries he sustained in that fight, what type of layoff is he looking at? Has he gotten back to training or is he holding off until that heals up more?

MP: Melvin threw some great kicks without a doubt, but Robbie never takes it off. He's a well conditioned athlete, always in great shape so he's going to heal a lot faster than say myself after taking those kicks to the legs not being quite as active anymore. A lot of people don't realize as brutal as those kicks were is that he was actually up and back on the exercise bike the next day. I know that seems kind of hard to believe, but we spent most of the night instead of going partying we kind of went back to the hotel room and started icing it down, rolling it out with a little foam rubber and giving it some laser treatment and kind of recycling that and going over the night's events and laughing and smiling and having a good time. We took our flights home and by that afternoon he's on the exercise bike already building it up. Granted it's still stiff and tender and stuff like that, but there's no damage to it and he's definitely able to move. There's no doubt in my mind, give him another couple of weeks and he'll be able to start a camp for any fight that strikeforce has for him.

JP: Moving on to Matt's fight with Renzo here coming up in Abu Dhabi, i read a quote from you where you said he's started training for this fight nine weeks out which is something he just doesn't normally do, how's he looking here as we're a little over a month and a half from the fight?

MP: Matt's looking good. He always eats really well, in fact I wish when we weren't in camp he'd come off that diet a little bit. But he always he eats really clean and takes care of himself. He's feeling really strong. I've gotten a chance to work with him, and his timing's coming along really well. Being nine week's out we've got lots of time and some little things we can build off of and there's no doubt in my mind he'll be able to fight over there. I know it's a situation where Renzo thinks he's fighting in a home away from home, but none of that stuff really matters to Matt and I hope that's not something Renzo's depending on. There's nothing like going to someone's home and beating them up. Anyone you ask, the biggest pressure is when you're actually having to fight in your home town, there's no pressure on us taking this fight.

JP: Now, Matt hasn't fought since his May win over Serra, is that nearly year long layoff going to have an effect on him here or is that something where he's stayed in shape and he'll be fine for this fight.

MP: That stuff is so hard to predict, sometime with some fighters it's an issue, sometimes with some fighters it's not. In terms of his preparations in the gym it doesn't look like it's going to be a problem. A lot of people don't realize that for a time Matt was fighting four or five times a year in pretty high profile fights, and I think the rest has been kind of good for Matt. It's not a situation where Matt's one of those guys that will blow up 40 pounds over his weight class, he won't even get close to that, he's always staying in good shape and he's definitely competitive, so I don't anticipate the layoff to be much of an issue with him as long as we do the right things in training camp for the next eight to nine weeks.

JP: There was a lot of talk coming into the Serra fight that both fighters were on the down trend of their careers with a lot of question of retirement coming into that one. Clearly, after that fight both guys looked like they still had plenty in the tank still left to go. Serra's coming off that knockout to Trigg last weekend and Matt's coming into this one looking to continue. With Matt having the career he's had thus far, how long does he want to keep fighting and keep this going?

MP: The thing is, Matt's always been able to stay really healthy. Outside of the fight with Thiago [Alves] where he fell awkwardly and damaged his knee, outside of that he's stayed pretty safe. He fights a relatively safe style for him. It's just a matter of motivation. Over the last two years, now that the sport is getting to a point where they're making a lot of money, it's kind of hard to sit back and say, 'i used to do this for free or i used to do this for a couple of hundred dollars, and now you're going to give me $100,000, $200,000 to do the same thing?' It's kind of hard to say 'I'm not going to saddle up for one more time.' So I don't anticipate as long as Matt's competitive and knows he can compete I think it's something he's going to want to stay involved with. One of the things he always says is it's not about the fights it's about the camaraderie we share as a team that are just memories for a lifetime. The fights themselves are awesome, and the accomplishments we achieve during them are fantastic as well, but the times we share as people, friends, teammates, those are memories I don't think we're ready to walk away from. I think it's something most fighters have to experience. Obviously once you're no longer competitive the questions answered for you but as long as you're competitive there's a lot of other factors to come into effect. These guys really did this just because they loved it before and I don't anticipate that stuff for some of these guys, to continue to make money and do well in the sport.

JP: Let's move it over to Jeremy and Elite Performance there in Utah. I know Jeremy has picked up four victories in a row here, is he planning any type of comeback to major shows. Strikeforce has a lot of guys he can compete against, and hell if he keeps winning he can make another return to the UFC. Is that something he's looking at or is he content fighting locally right now?

MP: No, Jeremy definitely has the goal this year to reassert himself as one of the top middleweights in the world. There were a couple of mistakes and mental issues we've had to get past in terms of his performances in the UFC, where he's on the cusp and one mistake and he's getting guillotined. But I think he's overcome a lot of that. There's been some talks of him going over to Japan that haven't come through. There's also been some discussions between me and him that he'd love to go to Strikeforce or just any organization. You've got to realize with a guy with as many fights as Jeremy has, he does that because he loves fighting. I'm just blessed to work with a group of guys that, you know we did this before the sport was popular, we did this before the big money was there. These guys are really a group of tough guys that really enjoy what they do. If that's to fight at a local show, as long as it's reasonable because we've got to eat and we've got expenses, you know they're gonna do it. And the same thing, should an opportunity come up with this organization or that organization, I know he would die to go to the UFC again. Especially with guys like Chael Sonnen who he's beaten a couple of times doing well. Jeremy's been so competitive, and to not come away with wins with so many great fighters that are now showing their faces and doing well in the sport and he knows he can compete on the same level if not work his way back up to a Title shot today.

JP: You've been in this sport for a long time, like you said you go back to the days when these guys weren't getting paid for this. You've come up with a group that has come up loving the fight game for the fight game, not for the money or fanfare. Now as a boxing and striking coach, who are some of the guys you look at in this sport that are the top strikers in your eyes across the MMA landscape?

MP: Initially when I first got into this sport it was interesting, because, I don't want to say it was laughable because there were so many holes out there in terms of people's striking games but they've continued to improve in such a short time. There's a handful of people. This isn't just because I coach him, but I'd have to put Robbie Lawler right out there. His defense is underrated, as outside of people getting in their lead leg kicks in on him, I don't really think the kid's gotten hit very much in the last three years or so. The traditional answers are Anderson Silva, as he's a lot of fun to watch. Obviously I'd love to see [Jose] Aldo, he's probably one of my favorite fighters to watch right now as a fan. I'm excited about his fight with Urijah coming up that should be a great fight. There's just a handful as there aren't many at the top of boxing or top level of K-1 fighters but it's getting damn close. Knowing the work ethic of the fighters in MMA I anticipate that gap to continue to close. But they are two different sports, and when you have to worry about ten different options there are going to be holes somewhere. It's just an amazing sport. I don't ever anticipate MMA fighters to match completely with the top boxers or K-1 strikers as they are different sports. There's a lot of things the guys in boxing and K-1 don't have to worry about that is a definite concern in mixed martial arts.

JP: Back to the Elite Performance gym, what's that transition been like for you from the Hit squad team out to working with Jeremy in Utah? Who are some of the guys that are looking to break out here this year from that gym?

MP: Jeremy is, in terms of mixed martial arts jiu jitsu, I'm not talking about gi jiu jitsu or anything like that, Jeremy is one of the godfather's of mixed martial arts. I can't tell you how many times I've been in rooms the week before a UFC event watching people sharing different moves and running things between one another, it's like tracing back your family tree in terms of what people are learning. A lot of things people pick up is stuff Jeremy has been doing for years and has been teaching people that came in and out of the Miletich Fighting Systems and went on to somewhere else and continued to teach. I know I'm in a great situation, as in terms of the ground game I have who I believe is the best ground coach in regards to mixed martial arts that's out there. Knowing what I have to bring to the table in terms of striking and coaching that it's going to be an amazing fit for years to come. I expect to continue to see things from DaMarques Johnson. I believe he's got a big fight with [Brad] Blackburn coming up, and it may actually be on the same card as Matt's. I know a lot of that is still up in the air but it's interesting if it does go through. I know Blackburn is a good striker himself, but DaMarques is probably one of the most well-rounded athletes that I've had a chance to work with. He hasn't had a real chance to show that. He kind of showed a little bit of it for the first two and a half minutes or so against Edgar Garcia before losing a little mental focus and getting caught with the right hand, but then he showed the great jiu jitsu he has in terms of going from the up kick to his triangle combination. The guy's tough and I anticipate really big things from him as long as we can keep him focused. There's a lot of young, tough guys there. There's a guy named Scotty Casey, he's a super young kid coming up. Nick Rossborough, he's a guy fighting anywhere from 185 to 205 lb.. He's a guy that's fought long enough to where he started off with no experience and didn't care about gym time so his record didn't start off very good because he just wanted to fight. But once he came to Elite Performance he's put some stuff together he's been able to string together some good wins. Then another big guy, or a big little guy is David Castillo, he's 155 pounder that we have that's knocking everybody out and I anticipate a lot of good things from him. But the thing is a lot of these guys are young, there's definitely some holes we'd like to plug up in their games before we push them really hard but there's lots of good things. I've had talks with a couple other agents which I'll leave under wraps for now that want to bring some other UFC fighters out to Salt Lake. It's a great place to train, not just because of Jeremy and myself, but the fight atmosphere here is amazing. A lot of people don't realize how many MMA fans are out here in Salt Lake, how many different shows, how many different gyms, and the fact that you get to come and train anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000 feet, it's not going to do anything but help you in terms of preparing for a fight. It's a great place to come and train. We just moved to a new gym that's just south of Salt Lake and Sandy, it's just about twenty minutes south of Salt Lake itself, that's a phenomenal place. The team is great. I still have a lot of contacts with my friends at the hit squad and even at Miletich fighting systems. Drew McFedries is a very good friend of mine who I've also had the privilege of training in the past. I get a chance to chat with Pat here and there. It's something that's been a progression from one place to another, they're all friends, we've all been involved in the sport for a longtime. Just like if I need anything from them I know they're there and if they need anything from me I'm just a phone call away as well.

JP: Speaking of Pat, he's come out recently trying to get a fight with Frank Shamrock, but with Shamrock stalling on this end it seems like he just wants to fight anyone right now. What do you think of him getting back into the game at his age.

MP: The thing is, age isn't as big of a problem as health. And when Pat's healthy he's going to give anyone fits, I don't care who you're talking about. I know a couple of years ago he had some problems here and there, but I know I've also seen him go on two or three year stretches where nothing's wrong with the guy. When that's happening that's fun watching Pat sit back and go with guys like Robbie, Drew and Matt. A lot of times if you didn't know any better you wouldn't know who was getting ready for the fight, or who was the World Champion still or who was the young up and comer. What Pat does better than anyone else in the world, I mean I speak so boisterously about it because you know there's a lot of talk about Team Jackson but Pat's been there and done that. I don't think anybody's still has as many titles as Pat's had in his gym. And the thing that made him so successful was the ability to transition so many disciplines together. He's a phenomenal striker, he's got great wrestling, he definitely has the submissions, but what makes him so deadly is the ability to transition from one discipline to the other. Whatever Pat wants to do, whatever he wants to focus his attention on, whether it's commentating, working with our military or building up young fighters, whatever he wants to focus on he's going to do. If he wants to continue training hard and compete again I anticipate him doing that successfully as well. But the thing is, his big downfall is there's just not enough time in the day. He's going to have to focus on what he wants to do, if he has the time, I know he'll have the dedication, he'll just have to pick which one he'll want to develop.

Matt, thank you again for taking the time to chat with me here tonight. Is there anything else you'd like to let people know that's going on out there in Utah, or what else is in store for Elite Performance in 2010.

MP: That's just it, even if you're not in Salt Lake we've got the ability to cater to a lot of fighters from all levels. We've got big guys, little guys, from 135 up to heavyweight. We're seriously dedicated to creating another dynasty. I know I've personally contributed to building lot of major gyms in the past from the Miletich Fighting Systems to the H.I.T. Squad, and I anticipate I'm building a little dynasty out here in Salt Lake City. If you're in the area, we'd love to have you, or even if you just want to have a gym membership, I come from the philosophy that iron sharpens iron, that's just our philosophy so we'd love to have you out here to continue learning from each other, and that's just about it.

JP: Well, Matt, thank you again, we hope to talk to you later in the year and best of luck to Matt against Renzo and look forward to see more out the Elite Performance guys and hopefully we'll see Jeremy back on a major card before the end of the year.

MP: I anticipate that, and thank you very much.